Shh, keep it secret - keep it safe!

Your comments on special weapon units are spot on. It's an interesting choice though - Chosen or Havocs?

Ordinarily, Elite slots are highly prized, which might make taking a unit you can also find in the Heavy Support section a bit suspect. There are of course benefits with the Chosen; infiltrate, a fifth weapon, cheaest possible daemonhost etc.

Regardless, the all special weapon unit is excellent and something all Deathguard player should make use of at some point.



I'm looking at the section on rolling saves in 'groups of identical models' in the rule book... perhaps it's not a s vague as I thought... I was going by the reasoning that you went be armament, so 'hiding' the icon in a group of four missile launcher armed Plaguemarines rather than three bolter armed Plaguemarines makes more sense.

I may be wrong. See what works smongst your local gamers, afterall, different people interpret rules in different ways.

Daemon Prince
The Daemon Prince is arguably one of the best HQ choices around, not only because of it's brutal close combat prowess and immunity to instant death, but because it is so under-costed.

given that there are relativey few choices to make it's pretty easy to use your DP. Wings are a no brainer, with an assault king who can't be transported, you want to flapping around the battlefield.

(Incidentllay, in a Chaos daemons army, the rightly feard Daemon Prince of Nurgle can opperate without the expensive wings option, due to the deep striking nature of the force, but that's a discussion for another time.)

So once you've got your flying DP with MoN, the only other question is one of psychic powers-

Warptime is top of the list making an already brutal odel just plain sick, and Nurgle's Rot is a close second. Don't be put of by the str 3, the rot, which is cheap can do plenty of damage, even against none hoard armies.

Both Wind of Chaos and Doombolt are grood powers, but I feel their place is on a sorcerer, and as for Gift of Chaos, well,you'll probably only take it for fun once, unless you're really into weird random powers.

There's not really much else to say, other than that as a large target you can expect the DP to attract a fair amount of fire, so use cover accordingly.

'The Great HQ Debate'
As a Chaos/Nurgle player you have three choices of HQ unit (excluding special characters and Greater Daemons)

Lord, Sorcerer, or Daemon Prince?

I think it's fair to say that there is an expectation for Chaos players to take Daemon Princes regardless, and at competition level to take two.

The Daemon Prince should not be the make or break unit that wins you the game (nor should any single unit really), rather part of the overall army's modus operandi.

It has been said that the Chaos Lord simply can't compete with other power armoured HQ units from other codices, and I'm inclined to agree.

However, that's on a point for point/equipment & special rules basis.

With regards to the Lord vs. DP question, a Lord kitted out can cost more and be less effective than a prince, yet a prince can stick out like a sore thumb (especially in a force containing few if any other mobile elements) - you can easily 'hide' a Lord (or Sorcerer) in amongst you units.

This ablity to hide (and by extension be more resilient then a DP) can be further exploited by a Sorcerer by using powers from within a unit insde a transport.

The Sorcerer has a certain edge over the Lord, the Force Weapon and psychic power combine to make a more efficient assault unit, or a more powerful ranged unit.

I think the Sorcerer truly is an overlooked gem in the Chaos codex, and I like using rarely seen units.

Whether or not you're playing tournament level, the Daemon Prince outshines the others, and the Sorcerer beats the humble Lord into tird place. But remeber, you should choose your 'killer HQ' to fit your army and style!

Well spoken Mab!
I've mostly been playing a Lord so far, but thats only because he was the only hq I've had painted, with my dp done and my sorcerer on the way, I fear he will rarely see the gaming table again..

Yes Mabs well spoken indeed. Having played 3 games now with a Termy Lord I have to say he sucks. Up against the equivalent HQ in a SM force he gets his arse handed to him in CC so badly it isnt even funny So I shall not be using one in future. Although I was wondering what you thought about using a basic Lord wih Lightning Claws on a bike as a kinda super Aspiring Champ its expensive yes but....Its either that or a Sorceror on a bike to lead my squad of 10 bikers. Do KUMQUAT RAGE! think adding a 'mount' makes a difference to how useful the lord is?

I reckon the biker Lord is great, I don't understand why they aren't seen at all in chaos list (let alone Nurgle lists).

A Lord on bike with either a daemon weapon, twin claws or a power fist, is fast and hard! The big issue is the far-to-high proportion of Strength 8 (i.e. instant death inflicting) weapons out there. With only a 5++ the Lord (or Sorcerer) could get squeezed far to easily.

The bike gives the option to get anywhere quickly and with a modicum of extra protection.

yes that was the trouble i had with my lord, even in termy armour. He either suffered from the Power weapons (leaving just the 5+ save) or the fists (leaving just the 5+ save). when a model costs that many points having to constantly make 5+ saves is....annoying. I see no reason why a nurgle Chaos Lord could have a 'swarm' of flies making him very hard to hit....before having to make saves etc.

Over the years there have been many 'cloud of flies' army rules or wargear choices that did just that.

I'm resisting the urge to do what so many have already done and write a 'deathguard codex'. It's an excersise in futility. Hopefully there'll be some new rules & army list stuff in the next Forgeworld book. The addition of Feel No Pain to various units would do nicely.

indeed! I would like the option to make ALL my sqds (chosen,raptor etc) from PM's thus getting FNP, rather than just the MoN. I just dont get why that option wasnt in the book. I guess they are trying to avoid the old realm of chaos syndrome, i.e. fantastic, fluffy and deeply confusing lol

That and the fact that the nurgle army would be a bit over powered if everything had fnp. If we had that on princes, chosen & terminators we would be wherry hard to beat in deed

you mean like the daemon codex in fantasy?.......

yeah something like that.

Land Raider
The Land Raider, the most formidable tank in the marine armoury, has had something of a rebirth in 5th edition.

41st millennium Scizoid tank -
The most obviously cool thing is its weaponry, who's going to argue with a pair of twin-linked lascannons? And let's not forget those twin heavy bolters, always useful as a back up against infantry. What we have at first glance is a tank that is better armoured and equally well armed as a Predator, if not better.

But wait, it's a transport also, capable of holding Terminators as well as regular power-armoured marines. Hmm. Transports move alot, whilst tanks, to fire more weapons, should be mostly stationary. You can see how the split personality of the Land Raider could mean you aren't able to make the most of it.

The trick is to ignore the potential firepower competely and consider its assault transport rule. You can disembark from a Land Raider and assault in the same turn. You can't do that with Rhinos or via deepstriking.

It is my opinion, and therefore fact, that you only take Land Raiders in a list designed to assault hard and fast.

Choosing the right combination of units is a major part of good list design. If a unit is being transported in a rhino it's there for mobile fire support and counter assaulting, units in a Land Raider are there to slap the face of you opponent witha big stick.

Terminators are a prime candidate for this, let's face it, they all come with (at least) a power weapon. A unit of Plaguemarnes including two meltaguns and a champion with fist is another strong choice, and the much-neglected possessed need to be leaping out of a Land Raider if you ever hope to make good use of them. Adding in a Lord or Sorcerer adds to the fun as well.

Given that the Land Raider and 'unit of death' within are going to cost you a fair bit, your list needs to revolve around them and have sufficient support from a second wave of assaulters (rhino mounted units are ok here, as are summoned lesser daemons, provided you have an icon or two in the assauting unit) or rapid fire units (double plasma plaguemarines for example).

Don't forget that being a large tank, it can block line-of-site to (or at least provide cover for) your supporting follow-up units.

The 'Rule of Two' (RoT) applies here as well. One unit leaping out of a Land Raider can do some damage, double that and you have a serious threat that is pretty hard to deal with. And besides, there's safety in numbers!

The AV14 of the Land Raider almost removes the need for either extra armour or possession, unless you regularly face (Dark) Smelldar.

Land Raider rush lists are pretty nasty, and the reworked Plaguespear is still a viable option. If you fancy an early brutal assault sort of list, Land Raiders are the way.

another well thought out and explained piece of tactica Mabs,

thanks

i have been thinking, what squad is ideal for such a tactic? I am looking at the codex now, ignoring the obvious option of 5 termies i can see chosen, possessed and havocs all having good cases.

the possessed squad (ignoring the "they just look too cool not to have" argument that i am sure we all agree with) are very expensive. They do get 2 attacks as standard but unlike the chosen and havoc sqds they only have one CC weapon meaning that isnt an advantage over the others and the random Daemonkin skill COULD work in your favour, COULD. So the question then must be, is paying 26 points per model for Strength 5 over Strength 4 worth it?
7 possessed, champ, MoN = 242 points

Chosen, the best thing in their favour seems to me that they can take 5 special assault weapons, any model can have melta bombs or you can take 4 special assault weapons and give your champ (with 2 attaks) a pair of Ligthning Claws (he loses his bolter but this is an assaulting unit). but all this gets very expensive, the downside is by putting them in Raiders your paying extra for the 'infiltrate' special rule and then not using it!
7 chosen, champ, 4 melta guns, MoN, LC's = 246 pts

Havocs, they are cheaper per model than the Possessed or Chosen options and can still have 4 assault weapons.
7 havocs, champ with power fist,MoN, 4 melta guns = 235pts

and just for arguments sake:
7PMs, champ with fist, 2 melta guns = 221pts


I think i would pay the 246pts for the chosen sqd, with its four assualt weapons and twin clawed champion, this is the best point for point assaulting squad for this tactic. plus you can give every model melta bombs if you wish too. meaning you could give them 4 flamers and 4 melta bombs for the same price.

Do you agree with me that Chosen are the best option, and how would you equip them? how much would you spend on the wargear for example, i mean is giving them ALL melta bombs a waste of points?

thanks as ever

phill

Hmm, well, if you put Chosen in a Land Raider you're not using their infiltrate ability so to compensate would have to arm them with power wepons... but that makes them as pricey as Terminators.

The havoc unit is almost exactly what was the 'spear' of the original plaguespear list. It'll work quite nicely on the first turn, disembarking, shooting, assaulting... but then what? Once in combat you can't use the four meltaguns and are relying on one fistychamp to do all the work. You'd also be relying on taking out the originally assauted unit, surviving (not being assaulted yourself), and then shooting & assulting your following turn.

The strength of an assault unit lies in whether or not each model has an inherent close combat 'buff' (terminator armour + power wepon, or in the case of possessed, str5, 5++ save).

Although Havocs and Chosen can have a great impact in an assault, it does depend on timing and circumstance.