Hammer what though? There are so many builds...

no it wasnt Stelio, please dont put yourself out for me
it was just a general point i was making....some players have experiance, some math skills etc...others just play and learn....like me. i hope to get enough painted soon to be able to play at my local store...just need a HQ and to finish a rhino

It's been a while but I'm pulling together the strength to do the remaining 'unit overviews', once that's done I'll rant about specific army builds, tactics and general guff.

Still to cover...
Daemon Princes,
Havocs,
Vehicles (Land Raider, Rhino, Pred, Vindi, Defiler, Dread),
Generic Daemons,
Spawn,
Typhus,
Man-flu marines (CSM + IoN),
Forgeworld/Apocalypse suff.

If anyone wants my views on something specific, gimme a shout.

If you could give tips on Typhus first, that'd be swell Mab...

Hey Mab! if you could get a chance take a look at Havoks that would be swell: I've bought alot of marines in the recent past, and think ten Plague Marine squads may be a little much.

I also have a question that should (hopefully) be quick and painless: I know you think arming every Plague Marine squad with a fist is a waste of points, and after reading other people's similar views and seeing the points price hike that goes along with fists I've decided that my champions are getting their arms chopped off. Now I'm not sure what to replace the arm with, or if it'd be a good idea to use champions at all. What would you use and/or what has worked well for you?

Now that I proof read that, it is definently not a quick question to read. I can't think of a way to shorten it, though. Sorry.

Hmmm.

You need to think about why you are going to a take a champion; there are three reasons I can see -
1 - for the additional attack and a power fist/weapon
2 - for access to a combiweapon and/or meltabombs
3 - to use as a daemonhost

Reason 1 we all know about, and although I've not covered daemons yet for #3, it's fair to assume that possesing a pricey Plaguemarine champion is a no-no.

So that leaves the middle choice. A single combi melta or flamer (plus meltabombs) gives you an extra bit of flexibility. Plus If you're going for only Plasma in each of your Plaguemarine units, and have little or no flamer/melta love in your list, unit champions could be what you're looking for.

Still, it's a high cost for a single shot!

do you want any help with the Apoc stuff as i have used in games:
Scabianthrax
Great Spined Beast
Plague tower

also used some of the nurgle/chaos stratagems.

from what i have read of the tactica so far, it looks pretty sound - but i would say melta guns on plague marines (in at least a very few units) seems to be almost a must, especially with the proliferation of land raiders hitting the gaming boards.

If you've experience using the Apoc stuff, write about it!

As for meltaguns to deal with Land Raiders - sure, depends on your local metagame. I'll go off on one about various things like that eventually.

thanks, Mab I'm considering just demoting my champions, or at least most of them. At the moment I've got five 7-man plague marine squads with two plamas and a fisty champ each. I think the fists'll have to go, maybe some will get replaced by meltabombs for tipping some ork trukks. I'll do that right after I finish transforming that new ForgeWorld Angry Red Git termie guy into a nurgly guy with twin claws. Mmmmm claws.

Sorry, been snowed under recently.

Typhus

Typhus is for many Deathguard enthusiasts the first and only HQ choice. For others he’s an expensive lord/sorcerer combo, and as far as Squiggoth is concerned, being a special character puts him out of bounds.

For a significant number of points you get a Terminator Uber Sorcerer with the Mark of Nurgle (and the Plaguemarine nurglesque upgrades) as well as a Daemon weapon.
Sounds good, in fact it sounds too good to be true – even at the high cost.

It should be fairly obvious that every turn Typhus spends out of combat is a turn wasted, so getting him there becomes the priority.

There are two methods (not including Dreadclaws) – Deep Strike, or a Land Raider.

Further more, you need to consider Typhus’ support unit (cos he needs one!).

Terminators are the obvious choice, but will cause Typhus to lose his Fearless status (and possibly the use of his grenades), unless you choose the Undivided Icon for your Terminators. Deep Striking maybe synonymous with Terminators, but it does delay assaulting, which is not what you want to be doing!

Given that Typhus has the same ‘upgrades’ as a Plaguemarine, I recommend using them as his bodyguard, and loading them into a Land Raider. Already you can see a large chunk of points being invested into one unit, so it should be the focus of the army and become the ‘speartip’ of a Plaguespear list.

Typhus and 7 Plaguemarines (inc champ with fist and two meltaguns) leaping out of a Land Raider will work a treat. You even have space in your transport for another power armoured Lord/Sorcerer (take another daemon weapon!).

The big disadvantage with Typhus is his Toughness of 4; he will get munched and suffer ‘instant death’ if your opponent has any brains.

The fact of the matter is that for a much smaller cost, a Daemon Prince of Nurgle with wings & warptime is as good as if not far superior to Typhus. And you can have two of them.

Overall Typhus is a useful, if somewhat predictable special character. He can be fun to use and work wonders if a list is built around him, but he certainly doesn’t belong in a competitive list.

hmmmm, as ever a very thought provoking post Mabs. the more i hear about Typhus the more i think i will only ever use him in huge games, or ones with special objectives etc (for fun)

Great work. I'm looking forward to more tactics here:)

Havoc Squads:

When you mention Havoc squads in the context of a Deathguard/Nurgle army, the infiltrating all ‘special’ weapon squad comes to mind. Why? Well, back in the much-loved previous Chaos Codex the ‘Book of Nurgle’ prohibited the use of heavy weaponry and as such units of Deathguard Havocs wielding four meltaguns or four plasma guns (flamers were rarely seen in abundance) frequently infiltrated or tank-hunted their way around the battlefield.

Of course now there are no such restrictions on the use of heavy weapons so Nurgle-esque Havocs can be equipped as we see fit.

First let’s go back over a few issues with the Icon of Nurgle. It is damn expensive, and potentially vulnerable to being singled out (to be honest, having played 5th for a while now I’ve yet to come across an instance where an Icon bearer appeared to be ‘too easily removed’).

Further more at the cost of more than 3 bare naked Chaos Marines the argument about more troops vs. tougher troops is to be considered. My own preference is to always take the Icon of Nurgle on I find you tittilating and mildly arousing unit I’m including in my army. In a serious tournament setting where points really count, you’re unlikely to spend that much on a single upgrade.

Why take a unit (with an Icon of Nurgle) other than Plaguemarines?
To do what Plaguemarines can’t.

The reason for choosing a Havoc squad is quite simply to get those big guns!
I shouldn’t have to tell you that mixing different types of weapons together, in an attempt to cover more bases, rarely pays off. Oh, and always go for the maximum 4 weapons.

Let’s look at the guns…

The Heavy Bolter is a nice bit of kit, it’s cheap, has a decent strength and rate of fire, and is pretty good at taking down infantry in swathes. However this is something you can already do with your Plaguemarines (and Terminators, and almost anything else) making the Heavy Bolter somewhat redundant.

Autocannons are what we get as a reminder of the Heresy Era and the apparent age of Chaos Marines. Despite it’s retro appeal I’m sorry to say that the Autocannon is junk. The strength is to low to take out tanks, the rate of fire to low to take on swarms and the AP too mediocre for killing anything with decent armour.

Lascannons are great, they kill kill kill, but what a cost! By the time you’ve bought a 4-man Lascannon squad you might as well have bought a Land Raider.

Saving the best for last – the humble missile launcher! Putting out four blast templates a turn will go a long way to remedy the Deathguard army’s difficulty with dealing out enough (anti-swarm) firepower. Plus the krak missile gives you the perfect anti Meq shot, and can even threaten AV14. If you want to take a Heavy weapons Havoc squad, I can see no reason to take anything other than 4 missile launchers.

So what about the ‘traditional’ all melta/plasma/flamer squad? Well, it is of course an option, but you’ll notice that Chosen can take the same (if not better) options and the infiltrate etc.

I think the Chosen win when deciding on who gets the four (or five!) special weapons, unless you’ve run out of Elites slots… which is possible I guess.

A few other points- it is often said that you need one spare body per heavy weapon, meaning a minimum squad size would be 8. Of course we prefer 7, which with the IoN should live just as long. Remember that there is nothing stopping you giving the Icon to a model with a heavy weapon.

An aspiring champion would be nonsensical here, don’t bother wasting your points.

Don’t forget a Rhino should you need a spare; you can use it to taxi other units and it makes great mobile cover.

Overall, a unit of Havocs with missile launchers makes a good heavy support choice from a firepower/weapons point of view, but I know people can be uncomfortable having big guns on infantry rather than vehicles.

I’ve always found the Heavy Support section of the Chaos Marine Codex to be rather frustrating. Defilers are a bizarre dreadnought gone wrong with oversized model issues, the Land Raider, despite it’s weaponry is an assault transport, the Vindicator is a one trick pony that only really works in groups of 2 or 3. Etc, etc.

Given the infantry heavy ideals of the Deathguard I reckon a squad of Havocs (or two) looks and feels right. Try them instead of a Predator tank, you may find they perform better… and you will shocked and amazed when you realise they out perform Obliterators!

Hey Mab,
I agree with your assessment of the heavy weapon options available to Havocs, but Havocs are still VERY effective as special weapons teams. I stay true to the Death Guard tradition and field no heavy weapons. Although plasmaguns, meltas and flamers are available to PM squads, you are only allowed two in each squad. Havoc squads allow you 4. That may not seem like much, but 4 specialist weapons greatly increases your chances of successfully destroying your target over having only 2. My tactical dogma is to hit hard and fast and make sure there isn't an enemy left to hit back, so havoc squads equipped in this manner form the backbone of my strategy.

A havoc or chosen squad equipped with all plasmaguns give excellent fire support against MEQs or light vehicles and is generally quite menacing. A havoc squad with meltaguns can bring down even the toughest vehicles and special characters and are the bane of all types of walkers. Havocs with flamers will bring unspeakable carnage down upon hordes. When equipped with Rhinos, these squads engage their targets quickly and cripple or destroy them, severely limiting my opponent's ability to strike back or contest objectives. With my Havocs and Chosen bringing the pain, my PM squads are free to take objectives and lend supporting fire. Its quite effective.

By the way Mab, haven't I seen you in a Guy Ritchie movie?

Wait a mo' this was posted march 12th? how did i miss that?? gosh my spam-fu is low.

Wait a mo' in a guy richie film....?

So havocs with ML. I have always like the ML. I made the mistake in my last army of equiping my devastators with one of each, a HB, ML, PC and LC. It worked ok if a tank was in range (which it often wasnt, well cos my opponent could see those guns!) and badly against the CC squad rushing at them at full speed. sigh.

the main question your post has aroused in my mind Mabs is:

Who gets the Icon?

the rules about dealing out the wounds means that every one gets a wound before you can double up a wound on one model, so if you give a PM a special/heavy weapon AND and icon you could lose both in a single turn to a single wound, right? but you seem to be suggesting i do just that, why? what is it i am missing?

thanks as ever